Hvem har brug for MM, når vi har MC

[Mr.Avantgarde]

Et indlæg fra Audiogon, der er ganske interessant, og som jeg faktisk deler langt hen ad vejen:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl ... 21&4&&st50


"I haven't had the budget to try a lot of different cartridges, but the MCs that I have tried (Koetsu Black, Denon 301, Clearaudio), left me decidedly underwhelmed. I could never figure out why a moving coil is the standard for high-end cartridge design.

I'm using a Grado Prestige Silver right now, which has the dymanics and musical coherance that I just don't hear with the MCs that I've heard."

[Mr.Avantgarde]

Her er lidt info om Nagaoka's MM'er (både tidligere og nuværende topmodeller)



MP 500     3mv, Line Contact, Boron cantilever, 8 grms
MP 300     3 mv, Elliptical (.4 X .7mil), Boron cantilever, 8 grms
MP 50     2.5mv, Superelliptical, Boron cantilever, 9 grms

[Mr.Avantgarde]

Her er et tankevækkende udsagn fra Raul om B & O versus Soundsmith (SS) ;

"Dear Dcstep: I never try in my system but I already heard on other system. Btw, I own different B&O MI cartridges including the MMC2 that is the model that SS take for its own SS cartridges.

From what I heard on both I like ( by small margin ) the original B&O over the SS: the tonal balance is more natutal against a little SS hifi presentation on the highs, anyway both are very good performers."

Jeg er bekymret over, at der nævnes, at SS tenderer at være lidt mere hifi agtig.

[Mr.Avantgarde]

Her er et væsentligt uddrag fra tråden på Audiogon:

"In reallity what I'm sharing to other people it is not to forget about MC cartridges in favor of MM ones, what I try to do it is that the people can know that the MM alternative is a very high quality performance alternative to the MC one.
Each of these different designs ( MC and MM ) have its own merits and its overall music sound reproduction " presentation " is different but on both designs we can find what we are looking for.

Many of us that for many years are hearing only MC cartridges really think that it is the best way to go about analog quality performance, well it is not the MM " road " is a very nice one too with a lot of " rewards " where the MC ones are a little short.

The high end audio industry is so " special " ( i don't have the right word. ) that many of the phono stage manufacturers don't even " swing his head " to the MM designs, for many of them the MM does not exist and that's why many phono stages are only for MC cartridges and the ones that have it are impedance inflexible: stop at 47-50K and almost no one goes to 100 Kohms that it is a must with MM cartridges, this is the real analog audio world where we live, it is a shame about.

Some people think that the MM alternative is a " dinosaur ", something that disappear many years ago, something that many of them try it in " those " times and that think are not up to the task today.
This kind of way of think is taking away to these people the great opportunity to enjoy the music in a top diffrent quality performance that the MC ones can't match.

To these people I want to tell that with their today audio systems the MM alternative can/could be shine, what they heard on those all times has nothing to do for ( with the same MM cartridges ) what they can hear today due to the huge quality improvement sound reproduction all of them achieve on their today home audio systems.

Right now not only we can buy " old " MM cartridges ( second hand or NOS ) but we can buy several different today MM designs: Ortofon, Audio Technica, Grado, Reson, Goldring, Rega, Sounsmith, Music Maker, Shelter, Garrot, Shure, Nagaoka, Clearaudio, etc, etc."


Her redegøres for, at MM er forsøgt sat i skammekrogen af industrien selv bl.a. og støtter mine synspunkter generelt.

[Mr.Avantgarde]

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl ... 1&4&&st100

Just a quick note to share a recent experience. As you know, I have been less than enamoured with my Allaerts MC2 Finish Gold preferring both my Dynavector XV1s and (amazingly, given costs) Nagaoka MP-50. Well, I still love the "being there" experience afforded by these two champion cartridges. Interestingly on this point, I had an audiophile friend stay for the weekend and when I played the Allaerts and Nagaoka, he assumed that the Nagaoka was the more expensive of the two. His words: "it just sounds like live music. No one part is better than the other. It's just all so real." When I told him of the price differential he said: "What the f*+&! No way!?"

[stridsvognen]

Hvorfor ikke oprette en citat tråd for dem uden egne erfaringer og meninger.
Som har stort behov for at læse sig til slutresultatet, fra en person de ikke aldrig har mødt eller hvis system de aldrig har hørt.

[lydarne]

Hvorfor ikke oprette en citat tråd for dem uden egne erfaringer og meninger.
Som har stort behov for at læse sig til slutresultatet, fra en person de ikke aldrig har mødt eller hvis system de aldrig har hørt.

Nu er det jo ikke hvem som helst som citeres, lige som Mr.Avantgarde selv er der jo tale om personer fra den audiophile-højborg. Som har en helt anden indsigt ind os almindeligere dødelige.

[Bevensee]

Et indlæg fra Audiogon, der er ganske interessant, og som jeg faktisk deler langt hen ad vejen:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl ... 21&4&&st50


"I haven't had the budget to try a lot of different cartridges, but the MCs that I have tried (Koetsu Black, Denon 301, Clearaudio), left me decidedly underwhelmed. I could never figure out why a moving coil is the standard for high-end cartridge design.

I'm using a Grado Prestige Silver right now, which has the dymanics and musical coherance that I just don't hear with the MCs that I've heard."

Hmm, interessant. Nu har jeg aldrig hoert nogen af de MC'er der naevnes i citatet, men jeg har ejet en Grado Prstige Silver, og den skuffede mig. Jeg synes den var alt for dominerende i oevre bas/nedre mellemtone, og derved tilfoerte musikken en del kunstig varme. Saa jeg foraerede den vaek, og skiftede til en K3, som jeg oplevede som lidt mindre detaljeret, men mere dynamisk og uden den kunstige varme. Set i bakspejlet var den maaske lige lovlig "tung" i bunden, men White Stripes' "Seven Nation Army" fra Elephant var godt nok underholdende!  

[virious]

Der er blevet ryddet gevaldigt op i denne tråd efter en bruger, der stadig ikke forstår, at han ikke er velkommen.

God debat!

/Jeppe

[Bevensee]

Her spiller Eagles.
Tidligere var det via Ortofon Rondo Bronze, MC 5000 eller Sumiko Palo Santos. Nu er der en MM på! Stanton LZ9S - low output MM, som spiller fremragende.

Hvad der er bedst? .... musikken.

Hvis nogen skulle være interesseret i en LZ9S så kig på min hjemmeside (ingen annoncer her).

Spaendende kombination, Jan!

Kan du ikke lokkes til at uddybe lidt med en kort teknisk beskrivelse af de fire pickupper (slibning, naaleroer, bevaegelig masse, hus, output, generatorimpedans), et par ord om hvilken pladespiller,arm RIAA de sidder i , hvordan du belaster dem, og vigtigst: En subjektiv beskrivelse af lyden?

Specielt kunne det vaere spaendende at hoere om ligheder og forskelle mellem de fire pickuppers maade at spille paa!

[Bevensee]

Right now not only we can buy " old " MM cartridges ( second hand or NOS ) but we can buy several different today MM designs: Ortofon, Audio Technica, Grado, Reson, Goldring, Rega, Sounsmith, Music Maker, Shelter, Garrot, Shure, Nagaoka, Clearaudio, etc, etc."


Her redegøres for, at MM er forsøgt sat i skammekrogen af industrien selv bl.a. og støtter mine synspunkter generelt.

Undskyld mig, men som jeg læser det skriver han da netop, at man i dag kan købe adskillige MM'er. Hvordan det kan tolkes, som at industrien sætter MM i skammekrogen gÃ¥r over min forstand.  

[ulrikmm]

Right now not only we can buy " old " MM cartridges ( second hand or NOS ) but we can buy several different today MM designs: Ortofon, Audio Technica, Grado, Reson, Goldring, Rega, Sounsmith, Music Maker, Shelter, Garrot, Shure, Nagaoka, Clearaudio, etc, etc."


Her redegøres for, at MM er forsøgt sat i skammekrogen af industrien selv bl.a. og støtter mine synspunkter generelt.

Undskyld mig, men som jeg læser det skriver han da netop, at man i dag kan købe adskillige MM'er. Hvordan det kan tolkes, som at industrien sætter MM i skammekrogen gÃ¥r over min forstand.  

[lydarne]

Selv google translate kan næsten finde ud af det

"Lige nu ikke kun vi kan købe "gamle" mm patroner (brugte eller NOS), men vi kan købe flere forskellige dag MM designs."

Jeg kan dårligt Dansk men den oversættelse kan jeg godt nok gøre bedre.

[RAMMA]

Her er et væsentligt uddrag fra tråden på Audiogon:

"In reallity what I'm sharing to other people it is not to forget about MC cartridges in favor of MM ones, what I try to do it is that the people can know that the MM alternative is a very high quality performance alternative to the MC one.
Each of these different designs ( MC and MM ) have its own merits and its overall music sound reproduction " presentation " is different but on both designs we can find what we are looking for.

Many of us that for many years are hearing only MC cartridges really think that it is the best way to go about analog quality performance, well it is not the MM " road " is a very nice one too with a lot of " rewards " where the MC ones are a little short.

The high end audio industry is so " special " ( i don't have the right word. ) that many of the phono stage manufacturers don't even " swing his head " to the MM designs, for many of them the MM does not exist and that's why many phono stages are only for MC cartridges and the ones that have it are impedance inflexible: stop at 47-50K and almost no one goes to 100 Kohms that it is a must with MM cartridges, this is the real analog audio world where we live, it is a shame about.

Some people think that the MM alternative is a " dinosaur ", something that disappear many years ago, something that many of them try it in " those " times and that think are not up to the task today.
This kind of way of think is taking away to these people the great opportunity to enjoy the music in a top diffrent quality performance that the MC ones can't match.

To these people I want to tell that with their today audio systems the MM alternative can/could be shine, what they heard on those all times has nothing to do for ( with the same MM cartridges ) what they can hear today due to the huge quality improvement sound reproduction all of them achieve on their today home audio systems.

Right now not only we can buy " old " MM cartridges ( second hand or NOS ) but we can buy several different today MM designs: Ortofon, Audio Technica, Grado, Reson, Goldring, Rega, Sounsmith, Music Maker, Shelter, Garrot, Shure, Nagaoka, Clearaudio, etc, etc."


Her redegøres for, at MM er forsøgt sat i skammekrogen af industrien selv bl.a. og støtter mine synspunkter generelt.

Din konklusion stÃ¥r  som eksponent for din lige nu indædte afvisning af MC princippet som værende mangelfuld og utilstrækkeligt
Pas nu pÃ¥ at du ikke bliver for religiøs og rigid i din overbevisning, du risikerer at lÃ¥se dig fast i teoretiske dogmer og kan glemme hvad der egentligt reelt kommer ud af lyd pÃ¥ de 2 systemer, det er jo muligt at justere begge systemtyper til topperformance, men ogsÃ¥ at justere dem sÃ¥ slutlyden passer den konklusion man ønsker at hÃ¥ndhæve, altsÃ¥ bevidst eller ubevidst justere lyden efter den overbevisning man har lige nu og gøre enten  det ene eller det andet pickup system uspiseligt lydmæssigt, noget der meget nemt kan opnÃ¥s, hvis man lidt indsigt her
for mit vedkommende har jeg en mere pragmatisk tilgang til teamet i denne tråd og går inden for den nærmeste fremtid, igang med en større praktisk test af MM pickupper, for at udlodde hvor meget der kan hentes ud af det princip
Hvad der skrives i og gives udtryk for i div. tester og fora rundt omkring i verden, er jeg i den forbindelse fuldstændig ligeglad med (det vil forstyrre unødvendigt i den forbindelse), jeg vil kun forholde mig til den lyd der bliver resultatet af den praktiske test af MM pickupper

[Bevensee]

Dine indtryk er ventet med spaending fra min kant, Ramma  

- Hvis du ogsaa skriver lidt om PU'erne rent teknisk, kan det vaere jeg kan komme laongere i min bestraebelse paa at forstaa mere af korrelationen mellem lyd og valg af design. Min tese er stadig at MM og MC principielt er ligevaerdige, og at forskellene ligger i udfoerelsen.