Hvem har brug for MM, når vi har MC

[RAMMA]

hvilken arm har du tiltænkt den med henblik på mm ?

[Mr.Avantgarde]

hvilken arm har du tiltænkt den med henblik på mm ?

Undecided.

[RAMMA]

hvilken arm har du tiltænkt den med henblik på mm ?

Undecided.

Hvad med en SME III arm   den passer perfekt til de fleste kendte MM pickupper pga af den lave masse og har rigelige justeringsmuligheder og lyder iøvrigt godt

[Mr.Avantgarde]

Vil lige linke til den glimrende gennemgang på TNT:

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/load_ ... ets_e.html

Illustrativ uddrag: (målingen gælder en Shure M97xe)


Now let's vary the load resistance, while keeping C at 250pF. The above simulated plot gives the electrical responses for 47k, 75k, and 100k. A pronounced resonance at around 11-12kHz develops and reaches a peak of 5dB in the 100k case. After this treble rolls off again.
The real-world cartridge then yields this:

5.gif (11.57 KiB) Vist 4251 gange

Increasing the load capacitance predictably lowers the resonant frequency and reduces the damping, hence more lift to the midrange and higher peaking. Would the latter suffice to equalize the M97's annoying midrange droop?

7.gif (12.51 KiB) Vist 4251 gange

The 75k // 370pF case is the flattest, but only extends to 14kHz. The 75k // 150pF case has the widest treble response, but this at the cost of a deeper midrange suckout. Now tell me, which loading will sound the best? Answer: there is no best. Taste will dictate. Which suggests that any closed formula for this problem is indicative at best, and misleading at worst.

[Mr.Avantgarde]

hvilken arm har du tiltænkt den med henblik på mm ?

Undecided.

Hvad med en SME III arm   den passer perfekt til de fleste kendte MM pickupper pga af den lave masse og har rigelige justeringsmuligheder og lyder iøvrigt godt

Det er ikke til SME udskæring.

Jeg overvejer flere, blandt andet  Jelco med aftagelig head shell. Det er nødvendig med aftagelig head shell for hurtige og nemme skift.

Der kommer fremefter en sand overflod af MM'ere her på adressen.

[RAMMA]

hvilken arm har du tiltænkt den med henblik på mm ?

Undecided.

Hvad med en SME III arm   den passer perfekt til de fleste kendte MM pickupper pga af den lave masse og har rigelige justeringsmuligheder og lyder iøvrigt godt

Det er ikke til SME udskæring.

Jeg overvejer flere, blandt andet  Jelco med aftagelig head shell. Det er nødvendig med aftagelig head shell for hurtige og nemme skift.

Der kommer fremefter en sand overflod af MM'ere her på adressen.[/quote]

du skal også igang med at teste mm pickupper
det bliver da lidt sjovt om vi hører det samme når vi tester den samme pickup
du kan få lov at låne den billige LPgear startpickup, jeg vil gætte på at den kunne overraske dig lydmæssigt, selvom data og osv siger noget andet

[Mr.Avantgarde]

du skal ogsÃ¥ igang med at teste mm pickupper  
det bliver da lidt sjovt om vi hører det samme nÃ¥r vi tester den samme pickup  
du kan få lov at låne den billige LPgear startpickup, jeg vil gætte på at den kunne overraske dig lydmæssigt, selvom data og osv siger noget andet

Planen er dels at teste hvad jeg måtte kunne få fat i af interessante emner, primært NOS MM, og dels at skabe en sand killer af en grammo.

Lenco'en skal toptunes og det bliver et langtstrakt forløb. Den har potentialet til at rydde bulen her i hjemmet, men der skal laves en del på den.

Det er projekt, jeg har iværksat og det skal nok blive godt.  

[Mr.Avantgarde]

En anden NOS kandidat:

astatic mf 100.jpg (68.53 KiB) Vist 4247 gange

[Mr.Avantgarde]

VIGTIG INDLÆG -LÆS GRUNDIGT

Dear Chris: I really don't know ( for sure ) how the MC " won " over the MM.

I can tell you what were my experiences and what I " think " about:

the very first time that I heard a MC cartridge was the Denon 103 and what I remember about is that its quality performance was better than the MM quality performance ( on those time audio systems, including mine ), the "big " difference was that the 103 (and latter the 303 and many others ) was " alive " against the little " softer " MM sound, it was better at frequency extremes and that " alive " sound really like me and in those times I don't have ( either ) the right audio system and the know-how to " tweak " the MM cartridge set-up to make this one a better performer.

Then I start to read the " underground " magazines (Stereophile and the like ) where the reviewers already had a " cult " for the MC cartridges ( a very special for the Koetsu ) and where almost all those reviewers ( like today ones ) own/owned MC cartridges but no MM cartridges ( maybe two or three of them use MM ones, like today ).

I don't know for other people but in those times for me the very high price of the MC cartridges told me ( a mistake ), due to my non-experience, that it must be the best cartridges out there where the low price MM ones does not have a place on the " high end " niche of market.
You know, if you wanted to belong to the high-end community you must own/owned a MC cartridge!!!!!, period.

Many myths surrounded the MC cartridges makes with no precise/absolute arguments that the MC ones are the " best ".

Chris, I remember 3-4 years ago ( maybe more ) when I " speak " about MM cartridges and or DD TTs that the people in this forum and in other non Agon forums " laughing " about.
IMHO the today non-sense cult for the MC cartridges, BD TTs or tube designs tell us what " ignorance /non-know how " can makes in favor or against audio items, many people does not want " to see " other alternatives: why?, this is something out of my mind because it suppose that all of us want to grow-up and looking for a better audio system quality performance but we don't take a chance to " try/test " a different alternative even if that alternative can/could be better.
Gentlemans, we not only have to grow-up but we have to be better over the time, we need to help the high end to quality improvements and we all customers have the key to do it.
For many many years you and me were " manipulated " on purpose or not on purpose for magazines, reviewers, audio dealers, audio manufacturers, etc, etc, I think that sooner or latter we must to stop all them.
The most important " opinion " of what we customers needs is our " opinion " not the other " opinions ". We have to try to even our opinion to all those other audo market opinions.

Many people say that I'm " dogmatic " and I think that I'm dogmatic in almost the same way they are but on different subjects.

The high-end cartridge market is so MC oriented that are top phono stages names that are exclusive to MC cartridges and they don't give you a MM option!!!!!

is better the MC design over the MM one?, IMHO I think that both designs are really good if we have the right phono stage, in the right anolog rig with the right set-up.

I think that we have to have both options. The MM option is so good that many people in the high-end are loosing not only the pleasure to enjoy the MM option but are loosing that great opportunity at a price level that is incredible low and are missing the opportunity to have a " new " ( really new ) great analog experience. I'm talking here with everything the same to both designs: MC and MM.
I'm sure that many of you ( if give you the chance ) will be prefering the MM alternative.

About your question on those " old " MC ones against the today MCs I can tell you that some of those " old " cartridges are ( at least ) at the same top level than the " today " ones in either design:MC/MM.

Well, Chris I have to stop because this post put me a little " angry " of what is happening in our beloved high end.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

[Mr.Avantgarde]

Et andet glimrende uddrag af indlæg fra Audiogon:
(jeg kan ikke lade være med at klappe i hænderne - jeg er helt enig med Axel)

............................................................Once I got it just right - next surprise!
This 'middle of the road' vintage MM cart turns out one serious competitor, so much so, that I truly think I will NOT even want go back and bother listening to my 3.5k$ MC cart any more!

Why, because it (MM) just sounds more RIGHT. Rhythm, timing, tonal colours, natural balance of treble to bass to put it in a nut-shell.

I have just very recently (3 - 4 days ago) listened to a Transfiguration Orpheus and yes, it has more resolution, very nice tonal colours --- but something of that MC carts particular way of sounding too. It is the same that I get from even the best of CD players, and until quite recently could not explain what it could be.

As a follow-up to the Munich Hi-End, a discussion brought something into focus: Treble roll-off behaviour, actually foremost related to tweeters, but also of some major relevance to carts IMO.
Steen Duelund figured it out, (he is no more with us since ~ 2005), but he noticed that if a treble source e.g. a tweeter goes very high to say 20, 30, 40Hz or even more, and then suddenly falls off steeply, from an until then pretty flat response --- something happens to the listening impression. Something starts to sound 'wrong'.

He (S.D.) also explained, that if you listen to e.g. live music, such steep roll-off NEVER happens. In 'natural' listening, the further away from the source you are the more treble rolls off, B U T it does so quite gently and naturally to the ear. Thereby all harmonic information stays undisturbed, 'in takt'...

The interesting thing is, that MMs have the habit to roll of more early than MC, but do so more gently i.e. do not fall off a cliff when done. That made me think...

What I experience, listening to a well set-up MM in a highly resolved system, is that sort of naturalness that I always seem to miss with MCs.
MCs remind me of a TV with the contrast turned up too much as an example. Nice to be impressed for a while, until something in your head tells you that this is just not quite right, a little bit overdone...

It is my experience that MCs are just so tuned to bring out more 'contrast' and it can be exiting - for a while, but then it can get also to this: something's not 'right' feeling.
Now, if you like it, nothing wrong at all --- as for myself I prefer that more 'relaxing into the music thing' and not getting 'frightened' by that 'over-exposed, or over-contrasted' as much as it can be a real kick, stunning, exiting and so forth, for vere hunting for the next detail etc.

So, it's horses for courses.
A good audio friend of mine will NOT go for this (MM) sound, he might be inclined to even ridicule me for wanting it more 'normal'. But I know, when it sound more right, THAT is what counts for me.

Enjoy the music, as Raul would say,

Axel

PS: Another enquiry yet: Why MMs should have lost their rightful place, so to speak...

[fan of the man]

Ja der kan sikkert findes bevis for enhver påstand på indernettet. Her er et link, som garanteret bliver overdøvet af alenlange skriberier og copy/ paste, så snart det altså bliver morgen i Horsens.
http://www.poulsaudiobutik.dk/

[Bevensee]

En ven har brugt termen "honninglyd" om Grado. Kan du nikke genkendende til det udsagn?

Med det forbehold, at jeg ikke har hoert deres træpickupper, og derfor ikke kan udtale mig om dem: JA

[RAMMA]

Ja der kan sikkert findes bevis for enhver påstand på indernettet. Her er et link, som garanteret bliver overdøvet af alenlange skriberier og copy/ paste, så snart det altså bliver morgen i Horsens.
http://www.poulsaudiobutik.dk/

ja det er den skarpeste pen i DK
læser hans klumme jævnligt med fornøjelse der bliver sgu ikke lagt fingre imellem, og så har jeg selv haft æren af at blive nævnt på et tidspunkt

[strand]

Ja der kan sikkert findes bevis for enhver påstand på indernettet. Her er et link, som garanteret bliver overdøvet af alenlange skriberier og copy/ paste, så snart det altså bliver morgen i Horsens.
http://www.poulsaudiobutik.dk/

Ahh den er grov og under bæltestedet, og på samme tid meget lidt morsom..

Man kan meget vel mene at Poul er Mogens ligeværdig, de er omtrent lige tosset for nu at bruge det ord.

Pouls enerums monologer tyder jo pÃ¥ at han er besat af at blive hørt i hifi verden, det giver ham en hvis tilfredsstillelse at blive hørt kan man fornemme, men for at blive hørt bliver han nød til at skrive underbæltestedet, lidt ala negativ opmærksomhed er bedre end ingen opmærksomhed –  Der er ingen tvivl om, at Poul bruger meget tid pÃ¥ at læse pÃ¥ div dansk Hifi foras for at finde stof til sine skriverier, og det i sig selv er tosset og en smule ynkeligt, nÃ¥r det nu er muligt at deltage der hvor det sker.

[RAMMA]

citat@
Man kan meget vel mene at Poul er Mogens ligeværdig, de er omtrent lige tosset for nu at bruge det ord.
det var vist ogsÃ¥ lige et godt los i klodserne under bæltestedet ,hvis jeg ikke læser det helt forkert