Hvem har brug for MM, når vi har MC

[lydarne]

Det vil sige at guru Raul mener at begge principper MM som MC er gode og kan bruges , det adskiller sig jo ikke meget fra den generelle holdning i denne tråd, og heller ikke fra min egen.

Så er alt jo godt, og meget afhænger af omstændighederne og den enkelte hvad der vil blive foretrukket.

Alt er som det plejer at være, man skal bare bemærke at er der virkelig noget som er godt så vil alle være enige og foretrækker dette. Et eksembel kunne være DCA kondensatorer

Og det er jo der vi stÃ¥r med  Mr.Avantgarde hemmelige pickup, den skulle være af den type som vil blive fortrykket af alle ifølge Mr.Avantgarde beskrivelse. Men vi kan ogsÃ¥ konstatere at selv om Raul sikkert har afprøvet denne fuldstændige mageløse pickup sÃ¥ har han ikke opdaget hvor overlegen den er, eller har han?. Ramma du har som sagt læst hele trÃ¥den er der nÃ¥et der peger pÃ¥ at sÃ¥dan en MM pickup til en meget lav pris er blevet fundet.

Nu har du Mr.Avantgarde holdt os alle for nar igennem 77 sider og mere end 1000 indlæg jeg synes det ville være på sin plads inden du evt. lukker tråden at du nævner navnet på denne helt suveræne pickup, selvom jeg godt kan se at nettet stammes om dig iøjeblikket, så synes jeg at du skylder os det.

Er den pickup virkelig så god så må der være noget som er lavet anderledes, der må være nogle kendetegn som vi måske kan bruge i den videre søgen.

[WymaxReborn]

PS: du glemte at få det her citat med fra Audiogon

citat@Rauliruegas

I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges.
The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.

det er hemed korrigeret

Det vælter også lidt rundt på det indtryk jeg fra andenhånd har fået af Raul's holdninger til MM vs MC...

[WymaxReborn]

Nu har du Mr.Avantgarde holdt os alle for nar igennem 77 sider og mere end 1000 indlæg jeg synes det ville være på sin plads inden du evt. lukker tråden at du nævner navnet på denne mageløse pickup, selvom jeg godt kan se at nettet stammes om dig iøjeblikket, så synes jeg at du skylder os det.

Er den pickup virkelig så god så må der som være noget som er lavet anderledes, der må være nogen kendetegn som vi måske kan bruge i den videre søgen.

Vi "ved" godt at den er god, men vi får næppe heller at vide hvad der gør den god, eller hvilke andre modeller der har samme egenskaber.

[Mr.Avantgarde]

Alt er som det plejer at være, man skal bare bemærke at er der virkelig noget som er godt så vil alle være enige og foretrækker dette.

....

Nu har du Mr.Avantgarde holdt os alle for nar igennem 77 sider og mere end 1000 indlæg

Nej. Alt er ikke som det plejer og jeg har ikke holdt nogen for nar. Den slags bemærkninger er useriøse  Muligvis forstret af den skamløse sÃ¥kaldte læsning af Raul's trÃ¥d af Ramma, der desværre har glemt at forstÃ¥, hvad der blev læst.

Det, der er sagen her, er, at MC altid har haft problemet, men er først nu blevet forstået og sprogliggjort af en bredere kreds.

Derudover har jeg ikke lovet nogen, at jeg er fuldkommen enig med nogen i den tråd. Jeg er tilnærmelsesvis enig med Raul i hans indledende vurdering af MM vs MC.
Hans holdning kan i starten af tråden (de første 11-12 sider) på ingen måde misforståes. Hans ører foretrækker MM, men tåler MC i kortere tid.
Det samme gælder Axel i Audiogon tråden. Ham er jeg faktisk mere enig med om det skulle være et issue her.

For at du nu kan forstå det, har jeg valgt at sakse noget fra de første 11-12 sider fra tråden (Raul's og Axel's kommentarer). Mere gider jeg simpelthen ikke.
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RAUL Citater:

but this Sunday I mounted my Sonus Dimension 5 on my SP-10 MK2 and Lustre GST-801 tonearm ( could you believe it?: the Lustre is on the lower side of high effective mass and the Sonus is a very high compliance: 50cu!!!. ).

It sounded very good from start but after a half hour ( maybe less ) I can't believe what I'm hearing from an over 30 years very old MM design: fabulous for say the least.

Which cartridge is your very top contender: Air Tight?, Olympos, XV-1?, Orpheus?, Colibri?, Allaerts?,etc, etc, you just named and as good any of them are the Dimension 5 not only even it but overall can/could bettered all them, oh yes including the Srain Gauge by SS. Yes it is that good, it is the better cartridge I own/heard?
……
This kind of beautiful/learning experiences always make me think what's wrong with today designs or better yet: why today cartridge designs are not really better than many old ones examples?. I don't have the right answer(s)
…..
Many of us that for many years are hearing only MC cartridges really think that it is the best way to go about analog quality performance, well it is not the MM " road " is a very nice one too with a lot of " rewards " where the MC ones are a little short.
……
Some people think that the MM alternative is a " dinosaur ", something that disappear many years ago, something that many of them try it in " those " times and that think are not up to the task today.
This kind of way of think is taking away to these people the great opportunity to enjoy the music in a top diffrent quality performance that the MC ones can't match.
…………
Tis 350E puts on shame not only other top MM cartridges but top MC names too.
……………………
The other very important factor is the quality performance of the MM phono stage.

Till today the analog high-end source was/is the MC cartridges, almost all the high-end manufacturers put their best on the MC stage and almost no one ( even there are phono stages that does not accept MM cartridges. ) cares about MM cartridges……..Maybe you could think that the quality level of your phono stage is the same running MM than MC cartridge and maybe it is in that way but normally it is not, IMHO the manufacturers design for the MC needs that are different than the MM needs ( again here the MM carridges could be in disadvantage too. )
…Now, there is a very god alternative where you can use your MC system with a top MM cartridge, try to find the Stanton LZS 981, this cartridge is very low output ( near the MC2 Finish ) and must be running in a MC phn stage, I'm loading mine at 100 Ohms but you can use a different load between 100-500 Ohms. With this cartridge option you can compare your Allaert one and a MM design in the same analog rig.
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I can tell you for sure that the " right " MM alternative can/could put on " shame " ( it is not exactly the word but I have no other. ) any single of the cartridges you own[Ortofon Jubilee, Lyra Dorian, Ortofon Windfeld, (on loan) Transfiguration Orpheus, DV 10x5, and DV 20X-L] and certainly with all " resolution and detail retrieval " that you can ask for.
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More than an " adventure " the MM experience is a glorious " trip " to a " land " that can give us a unique and " different " joy of music reproduction that IMHO no other source ( I mean cartridges. ) can even or dream about.
….
+++++ " MCs are just so tuned to bring out more 'contrast' and it can be exiting - for a while, but then it can get also to this: something's not 'right' feeling. " +++++

I can't say it better than you, I agree of course.
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Axel, the good news for you or any other " MM adventurer " is that if you find/choose any of the top MM performers that high " contrast " that you are talking about on the LOMC will appear in the MM alternative but with the RIGHTNESS/NATURALNESS that the MC can't show it.
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Axel and you all Agon friends: " for any one can audio-die in peace we have to listen any of those top MM cartridges ", nothing comes really near it.
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my AT.20SS as your 15SS were build/designed more than 30 years ago !!!!! and this kind of quality performance is no even today.
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ON your other quetion on phno stages and like you say what you find in the market are phono stages dedicated to MC ones where you can run too MM but not at its best.
The MM cartridges are different than MC ones and its needs are totaly different too that's why the MM cartridges need a dedicated ( means designed on porpose. ) phono stage
….
Now and even the high quality performance of the [koetsu]Coral and in less way the [Air tight pc-1]Supreme my top MM/MI cartridges which we compare it give an unanimous veredict from three audio friends: the MM/MI quality performance was not only different but overall a better one. Those MM cartridges were: Grace F-9 Ruby, Signet TK10ML2 and Audio Technica ATML-180 OCC, these ones were the ones my friends heard it and I can add: Sonus Dimension Five and Audio Technica AT-20SS and counting.
…
AS good as all these LOMC cartridges[Goldbug MsBrier, Lyra Olympos, Allaerts Formula One, FR-702 ( with the Micro Seiki MAX tonearm. ), Ortofon MC-2000 ( with out SUT. ), Satin M21-P, Dynavector XV-1 ( not the 1s. ),Audio Note IO Limited ( original from Japan: 1982. ), Ortofon MC-7500 ( border line. ), Audio Technica AT-1000, Technics 305MK2, Victor MC-L1000]are IMHO Here and Now the MM cartridge range is the one that has the " Magic ", and IMHO too that " Magic " is untouchable by any MC cartridge.
….
as good as it the Koetsu Coral ( btw, a beautiful made exotic build material. ) there are MM's that overall surpass its quality performance by a not so small margin.
….In that post I name the MM's that I had on hand ( testing in those days and that I believe were good enough to make a comparison. ) but certainly there are other cartridges that are over the quality Coral and Supreme performance.
…..
Dear friends: This post is nice to read it:

+++++ "

08-03-09: Axelwahl
Just for some interest and still on the M20FL super subject.
My Audio friend, a VERY fussy stickler to sound performance and owner of Transfiguration Orpheus-L has heard both carts in my system and conceded that the M20FL was doing A LOT of things better the his Orpheus! (I'm shocked) ---- he also agreed with my earlier statement of the M20FL bettering a Kontrapunkt-B, and being at least on a level with a Jubilee performance, possibly even slightly better. " +++++

Btw, I agree with Axel's friend.
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I'm still hearing top LOMC cartridges ( I like it. ) but I'm having a " oriented " thought/feel about: any time I switch from MM to MC I really enjoy the MC quality performance but I enjoyed for brief time because after this brief time my ears ask to come back to MM for a more free/whole music enjoyment.
This fact does not happen at the inverse, I can hear the MM alternative almost for ever asking for nothing different.


AXEL citater;

This 'middle of the road' vintage MM cart turns out one serious competitor, so much so, that I truly think I will NOT even want go back and bother listening to my 3.5k$ MC cart any more!
Why, because it (MM) just sounds more RIGHT. Rhythm, timing, tonal colours, natural balance of treble to bass to put it in a nut-shell.

I have just very recently (3 - 4 days ago) listened to a Transfiguration Orpheus and yes, it has more resolution, very nice tonal colours --- but something of that MC carts particular way of sounding too. It is the same that I get from even the best of CD players, and until quite recently could not explain what it could be.
…
What I experience, listening to a well set-up MM in a highly resolved system, is that sort of naturalness that I always seem to miss with MCs.
MCs remind me of a TV with the contrast turned up too much as an example. Nice to be impressed for a while, until something in your head tells you that this is just not quite right, a little bit overdone...
---
It is my experience that MCs are just so tuned to bring out more 'contrast' and it can be exiting - for a while, but then it can get also to this: something's not 'right' feeling.
….
Best cart in my system for my ears this far... and it's an MM!
….
To say it again, and I'm now busy with an AT140LC which YET AGAIN outclasses all MCs I had in my system to date.
This in terms of palpability, sound stage, realness or more true to instruments like violin, guitar, flute, etc.
…
I'm still baffled, about what synergy is creating this sound from a ~ 35 year old MM cart.
Not one MC has done this to date, and I wonder if it ever will,
….A LOT of very good sounding MM's have nothing other then a squashed alu-tube canilever - makes you think, doesn't it?